Here is a hypothetical situation for your consideration.
Let's say there is a married couple. Pretty much every couple has at least one topic they consistently struggle with (money, housework, in-laws, free time, jealousy, parenting, sex), and let's say this couple's issue is the sex one: he wants it more than she does, and she thinks he's been too influenced by teenaged (or possibly current) porn use, and both of them are always misunderstanding each other even when they try to talk frankly about it, which is difficult for them to do because this is Their Difficult Area.
Let's say that one of their issues is that the guy likes to TALK and likes to come up with ROLE-PLAY stuff, and the girl can't concentrate if she's straining to hear what he's saying, and also she has always hated role-playing of any kind, including when she was in Brownies and had to pretend to sell Girl Scout cookies to the leader---but she especially hates role-playing of the "Let's pretend YOU are fantasizing about something you would in fact not fantasize about but apparently _I_ would" variety.
ANYWAY. Let's say the girl has been willing over the years to try many different ideas for improving this one area of frequent struggle, and so she decides that since he frequently talks fantasy talk, he must like it, and so she will try it. So during a Sexual Encounter, when he holds down her hands hard in what seems to be a fantasy kind of way, she asks him in a sexy voice if he ever has a related fantasy. And he says yes, but then, um, almost immediately he starts, um, losing his vigor, if you see what I'm saying. And he lets go of her hands and seems to be having trouble, and then the end seems not only different than usual, but possibly...faked? For the first time ever? But it is difficult to tell for sure because of a barrier method.
So, in this hypothetical situation, what do you think she should do? Should she:
1. Ask him about it---keeping in mind that conversations on this topic almost always go poorly, and that's not likely to change even if it "should," and even if other couples find such communication clears the air and brings them closer together.
2. Retreat and regroup: say nothing, and assume that particular fantasy speculation was a Total Fail for whatever reason, and not bring it up again.
3. Some other thing.
I think this is one of those situations that can't be generalized, but really is specific to the individual. (is he the type who can discuss these things without getting defensive or angry? if not: go with the retreat, regroup and say nothing!)
ReplyDeleteI can see me waiting for a short time (few days) and then asking about it. Did he suddenly fantasize about something else when he was asked? Or did mentioning fantasy take him out of the fantasy? Who knows, maybe an image of his great Aunt Clara came to mind for no apparant reason.
I wouldn't bring up the loss of vigor or the idea that perhaps things were faked - but just something along the line that it didn't seem like he enjoyed it as much as expected and can we change something next time? (if you want there to be a next time...)
I'd actually say let it go. Don't bring it up and only discuss it if he brings it up. And I'd certainly avoid role-playing in that manner again.
ReplyDeleteDo you think he was embarrassed? Because *finally* you seemed to be on the same page and he realized that maybe the chase is more fun than the capture, if you get what I'm saying. Maybe it's that he *thinks* he wants to play along, but really he just wants to have something over you? I don't know. My hubby's never asked for any kind of role-play situation. I'm not sure what I'd do if he did. Probably laugh at him. 'Cause I'm sweet like that.
~Constance the Traveled
I think if you are at all adventurous sexually, you will end up trying some things that are Epic Fails to one or both parties. Often for unknown reasons. In fact, I think I would be irritated if my partner asked WHY I didn't like a certain thing. I just didn't, ya know?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, if he wants to try a different angle, I bet he'll let you know.
Uh, this was just a rambly vote for Option 2, in case that wasn't clear.
If you feel like you want to talk about it because letting it go is not pleasant for you, then might I suggest email? I know that sounds lame, but hear me out.
ReplyDeleteWhen Gerald and I need to talk about Something Important that often times has Feelings involved, we use email. That way the email writer can take all the time they need to write out their issue/feelings/whatev and then the reader can take all the time they need to process the email and then reply. It takes the pressure off of us to reply instantly in conversation or be forced to deal with the other person's feelings which inevitably leads to drama in our house.
I know email sounds like a callous way to treat a Sensitive Subject, but it really works for us.
I agree that email can work. Because my husband and I fell in love via the internet, writing has always been an effective form of communication for us.
ReplyDeleteThat said, I might go with option 2. Sometimes it's easier for me to let things go and just forget them.
So basically, I haven't helped, have I? ;-)
If conversing about it isn't an option, then try it again, maybe differently, while in the situation again.
ReplyDeleteSome possible reasons for him losing his vigor might have things to do with things that, well, make him uncomfortable about having fantasized about the particular thing you were asking about. I don't know, I am not telepathic.
What I mean by trying it differently: Maybe try creating a scenario wherein he gets to fantasize a role-- it can be as simple as "You're not going to let me get away, ARE you...?" which immediately pegs him as the one in control and you as the weak one, which can work sometimes.
There are roles like cop, doctor, mexican migrant worker, that you can subtly suggest with one sentence that make it sound like it's a fantasy you've been having, and it will work for him even though it is fake on your part-- you can mostly ignore his responses and focus on little ways to heighten the experience until he forgets about the fantasy altogether.
For example: He grabs your boob, you ask something about, "are you ready to examine me, doctor?" For us it works better if you drop the "Cancer" word and make it as cheesy as possible, because we laugh and laughter is a natural aphrodisiac.
For a cop, the holding hands down hard bit can work-- "I've been a bad girl" "You think you can restrain me, mr. policeman?" "I'll always get away", etc-- just one sentence will be enough to change the mood, you can ignore what he's saying, retort with another sentence of the same vein, concentrating on things that make you feel good, and soon the whole thing will be forgotten.
There are always two ways to go, you as the sub and him as the sub. Either he's got you now, or he'll never keep you. Either he's got to punish you, or you know what he's done and have plans for him.
I hope this helps a little-- there will be fails and things, but you can tweak the method in game and figure out what works for you.
My tip: have 3-4 accompanying lines to go with the first one, you can write them on a card if you want, you can save these cards and either of you can pull them out of a shoebox in the future, etc.
This may be all wrong for you, but I figured I'd give you my 50 cents. :)
I would go with Option #2. Just chalk it up to a FAIL and move on.
ReplyDeleteOption 2.
ReplyDeleteOof.
ReplyDeleteTake this for what it's worth, from someone who seems like the only time we can be completely open and honest about the delicate stuff is when we're under the influence of something. Which doesn't happen very often anymore. Though there have been times lately I've debated purchasing something illegal or else plan to get piss-drunk to get brave enough to have a talk.
Other than that, I really agree with Erica and anyone else who suggested email. It doesn't necessarily have to be email; I've hand written letters to him before in good times and in bad because I know that's the best form of communication for me to be able to say everything I need to say and not get upset and forget something.
Maestro Dennis, you sexy beast, how did you know that I am wildly turned on by fantasizing about oncologists telling me I've got cancer?
ReplyDeleteMy "safe word" is now "Mexican Migrant Worker." Just FYI.
MEXICAN MIGRANT WORKER MEXICAN MIGRANT WORKER MEXICAN MIGRANT WORKER
Hrmm, tricky. I think sometimes the fantasy stuff can get wrapped up with feelings of shame or embarrassment - maybe that's what was going on? I don't know - sometimes discussing something like this further can make it into a THING that compounds the awkwardness and is better left alone unless it becomes a big issue. But every couple is different and has their THINGS, you know?
ReplyDelete(Just to hypothetically commiserate here - if HE wants to talk during that's fine, but being asked to talk, esp. when it's like being given lines? CRINGE. I don't know, but I think I can understand.)
Word verification is "squat". Nice.
I would ask. Because...I have a relationship where that works well. In fact, I would be grilling him immediately afterward to find out what the hell happened. Um, because I am a bitch? And really wouldn't care whether he wanted to discuss it? And possibly faking for first time ever seems like *huge* deal in my head.
ReplyDeleteI would just want to know what went wrong as to not repeat the incident. But this would be an ok situation for us, because this is not an 'issue' we struggle with. And while I would ask, I wouldn't even venture what would be appropriate/level of true importance for someone else.
Helpful, right? Right.
Eeesh, that's tricky.
ReplyDeleteJane's safe word is making me crack up though.
I like the idea that laughter is an aphrodisiac -- if you feel a little silly, it's okay!
It might be easier to bring it up when sex is on the agenda but you're not quite yet "in the moment" -- like when he's trying to initiate and you ask if that means he wants to hold you down? Not in a judging way, just enough to feel it out? Then you can "act out" your not wanting to have sex feelings! Errrr, but maybe that's why he was weird about it, because he already feels like he's having to force you into it too much.
Another person with little help, then.
Ughh.. I'd just let it die. Pretend it never happened. He probably doesn't want to talk about it and you probably don't want to know. But I would assert things that YOU enjoy during intimate play-time. I for one find that I enjoy intimacy more if I get a full on back/body rub first. I get what I want/need, he does too. I resent it less I find.
ReplyDeleteMEXICAN MIGRANT WORKER?!?! I cannot stop laughing. I *ACTUALLY* LOLed
ReplyDeleteOh. Sorry. I had to compose myself before I could answer. I would go with Option #2, and my completely unsolicited, unknowledgeable opinion would be that this particular fantasy of his is something he's embarrassed about. Either it doesn't normally contain YOU, it's something he thinks you would think less of him because of, or something he's ashamed of for other reasons. I think in order to kind of instantly lose vigor like that, it's got to be a pretty big sore spot...? He probably doesn't want to talk about it at all. Unless it's something YOU also fantasize about and are willing to encourage, I think it's best to just back away from the fail ledge.
ReplyDeleteOr of course, I could be completely wrong, seeing how I am a complete stranger who is not a psychiatrist or psychic or knowledgeable about these things or even really all that insightful.
Freaking Mexican Migrant Worker! WTH? I'm STILL laughing...
Maybe he got embarassed because he knew you weren't ACTUALLY into it the way he was and so it was off-putting to have you respond as though you were? Or it just took him off guard?
ReplyDeleteI'll just be honest here, as the one in my own personal relationship who tends to fantasize about various role-playing scenarios: sometimes things are better IN YOUR HEAD than they actually are once realized. Like, sometimes it works better for me to just imagine some stuff while having sex than to actually try to initiate stuff and get my husband to talk back to me as though he's part of the fantasized scenario, when I KNOW he's just humoring me.
It's like, I appreciate that he tries and that he's open to stuff, but if I know it's not doin' it for him or in fact actually turning him OFF, I'd rather just keep it in my head and continue with our usual routine.
So maybe that's what Mike usually does, but then when you responded, it took him aback and he realized that maybe having you take part in this fantasy was more weird and less hot than he expected.
I say just totally ignore it unless it happens again and then maybe later bring it up casually.....whoever said there will always be "fail" involved from time to time is so right (though usually it is on the poor woman's part, so for once he got a taste of what it's like...)
ReplyDeleteIs it possible he just wasn't sure what you meant? Like, okay, let's say he normally fantasized about just being very rough and in control (but in a non-creepy way), but after he said yes he did fantasize about what was happening he then realized that perhaps you then thought he meant something else that was more creepy/perverted and then he was thinking about that less attractive fantasy and that made him lose his concentration on the moment and then he lost the vigor?
ReplyDeleteSex talk is hard. I try to be very specific when I make a request or sexual comment during the act itself so that what I want/mean is exactly what the other person hears.
I think an email in this situation is okay. You could ask him what he does fantasize about, and you could maybe throw out a bone with a fantasy of yours. (one that doesn't maybe include him folding laundry while making you dinner? LOL)
I can't understand all the "ignore it" "pretend it didn't happen" comments...makes me think they have personal yuck factors regarding role play that they are incorporating into their advice to you. I guess if it isn't something you ever want to do again and you don't care what went wrong because you have no desire to fix it - then that advice works. But I would want to know and I'd want to make sure it didn't happen again (the losing of vigor...)if it happened because of something I did or didn't do.
ReplyDeleteForget it. It happens and will happen again as you get older.
ReplyDeleteC99
Do you read the Savage Love column? It's printed in The Stranger and in The Onion (but is not satirical). It's written by sex columnist Dan Savage. He covers a lot of stuff like this, where one partner wants something and the other one isn't that into it, and how to improve communicating with each other. Check out the archives. Look for stuff about "GGG" (you'll figure out what that means when you read about it). It's really informative, and also a little bit entertaining, and I've found the column quite helpful over the years.
ReplyDelete